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PRESENCE247

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An In Depth Look at The New Testament: What Are The NT Authors Really Saying?

Sun Feb 19, 2012 1:37 PM EST
religion, bible, jesus, new-testament, atheism, christianity
By Presence247
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This is the first installment in my series regarding the New Testament of the Christian Bible. In this edition I will be discussing what the authors of the Gospels are really saying as well as what Paul has to say. To get a better idea of what is said from each authors perspective we will be doing a "horizontal" reading of the Gospels and do some comparing with what the Pauline portion has to say. 

It is well known that the Gospel writers have different stories to tell but all to often this is dismissed as saying that they are merely different perspectives of Jesus' life that merely overlap each other. This, at first, appears to be a satisfactory answer and for many the subject is never looked into in any further detail after this. However, with a little digging, it becomes apparent that these authors vary so dramatically in places that they simply cannot all be accurate. I will give various accounts of this below.

First, let me establish that there is near unanimity among biblical scholars that the Gospels were written pseudonymously. There is good reason for this belief and the first and most obvious is the date these books were written. Mark is regarded as the first to be written coming in circa 70 CE and is commonly believed to be the so-called Q document meaning that this is the common source between Matthew and Luke (hence the similarities between the three). Luke (who authored Acts as well) comes in next with the earliest dates coming in circa 59-60CE, and finally we have Matthew coming in somewhere between 70-100 CE. John was the last to be written (earliest dates come in at 80CE) and tells such a different story that it is often considered in it's own boat, it is not included in the "Synoptic Gospels." 

Outside of the obvious time gaps (Mark was written about 35 years AFTER Jesus' death) the books never name an author. The names have been attributed to these books from very early on, but this is by no means a claim of authorship (only a slight hint). Why make no mention of authorship? If these books were actual eyewitness accounts, why were they written so long after Jesus' death? How could they possibly be word for word accounts and who would honestly expect them do be given the time difference? 

  • A Horizontal Reading

Let's examine a few stories that the gospels agree on and see how close the accounts actually are. Many people read the bible one book at a time, one chapter at a time. This is called vertical reading, and when read like this the Gospels seem to be very similar and tell practically the same story. However when we read these stories horizontally, discrepancies abound. 

Let's start with the birth story which, oddly enough, is only in two of the Gospels, Matthew and Luke. You would think that the story of a virgin birth would be worth mentioning if you were recording noteworthy events in someones life, so why it only appears in two books is questionable on it's own but for now we'll overlook that minor detail. 

We'll start with Matthew's version which begins in Matthew 1:18 and finishes around 2:23. This account goes roughly like this. Mary and Joseph are to be married when it turns out she is already pregnant. This naturally does not sit well with Joseph who plans to divorce her but is then told in a dream by "an angel of the lord" that she bears gods child and that he should still marry her. Joseph does this and she bears the child the name Jesus. Wise men them come from the east following a star in the sky that leads them to Jerusalem. There they ask King Herod where the king of the Jews will be born, Herod (who is fearful of this prophecy) assembles his men and they conclude that Bethlehem is where he is to be born. Herod sends the wise men out and tells them to send word once they find him so that "he may too worship him." The wise men set out again and follow the star which reportedly stops over the house where Jesus and company live (how a star stops over a single house in particular is beyond me). The wise men shower him with gifts and, being warned in a dream, leave without telling Herod where he is. Joseph is warned in a dream that Herod will come to kill them so they leave and Herod proceeds to kill all male infants 2 and under (Oddly this portion is almost always left out of the nativity plays). Eventually Herod dies and his son takes over, so instead of returning Joseph and family settle in Galilee," And he went and lived in a city called Nazareth, so that what was spoken by the prophets might be fulfilled, that he would be called a Nazarene."

It's important to note here that Matthew is quite obsessed with this birth fulfilling Old Testament "prophecy." Oddly enough the scripture he is quoting regarding Jesus being born to a virgin is Isaiah 7:14. However in the Hebrew bible it actually reads a young girl (not virgin) and is more likely referring to an immanent birth and not some future happening (this is based on the Hebrew language and it's use of, or lack there of, tense in grammar). What's more likely is that Matthew misinterpreted this ancient verse.

Luke tells a much different, and longer, story of Jesus' birth. In fact, the two stories only truly agree on two points. Jesus was born to a virgin in Bethlehem. Luke first describes and angel tells Mary,not Joseph, that she is to conceive the son of god. Also in Luke's account Jesus doesn't reside in Bethlehem and is born there due to an empire wide census issued by Augustus. They're are asked to return to their ancestral homelands and for Joseph, being related to David, this means Bethlehem. When they get there though we all know what happens next. There is no room at the inn, so baby Jesus is born in a manger. Instead of wise men, shepherds are greeted by an angel in the fields and told the Messiah will be born and to go worship. After Jesus is born, he is circumcised and the new family promptly returns to Nazareth.

For brevity sake I'll stop there (you're welcome and encouraged to do independent reading from your own bible on this) with the stories. So let's look at what we have. In Matthew Joseph is visited by an angel, in Luke it's Mary who gets the good news. Matthew, obsessed with prophecy, has Jesus living in Bethlehem then fleeing, eventually, to Nazareth to fulfill prophecy. Luke says there was a census (which I will look at more closely in the historical article later) that had Jesus born in Bethlehem but in a manger. Matthew has wise men, Luke has shepherds. Matthew has mass infanticide (also to be discussed later) and a family in hiding for years before reaching Nazareth, Luke has no infanticide and a prompt return to Nazareth.

It is quite obvious that both accounts simply cannot be true. Why is Matthews account so much different? Why are virtually all of the parts different in both accounts? Clearly both authors had their own story to tell, and neither knew that their books would be put together and fact checked against one another. Both authors told the story as they saw fit with their particular audiences in mind, but both cannot be true. Churches like to combine the two stories every year for the Nativity plays but what they really do is create a new story, a new gospel. If we accept the traditional view of the birth (the one the plays have which is a hybrid of the two stories) then what we are really saying is that neither author really had it completely right. This is a subtle admittance of fallibility and thus a certain knock on the validity of our authors, and this is the first story they tell.

I will list a few other stories for independent reading here, so as to not be too drawn out. I will link some verses here, others you will have to do some digging. Clearly this is only for those interested but I do encourage it if you're interested.

  1. The story of Jairus in Mark 5:21-43 and Matthew 9:18-26
  2. How can Mark 9:40 and Matthew 12:30 both be true?
  3. How long did Jesus minister? (Note Mark's repeated use of "immediately".)
  4. Jesus' death. What time of day and what day? Mark 14-15, John 18-19
  5. The Resurrection stories, who met the women at the cave, where was the stone when they arrived?

These are just a few and there is plenty more to be found if you look. It's interesting that all of these stories differ so much if they were all accounts of the same man's story, not to mention they are to be divinely inspired. Why would an omnipotent, omniscient being allow such contradictions in his holy text? Is it possible that these authors were just trying to tell their own story? Perhaps they all had their own reasons for wording things how they did. This becomes quite clear in the passion narratives. Some authors make Jesus out to be strong and willing to the end while others have him asking god why he has forsaken him. 

  • Synoptic v. John

Why are the synoptic Gospels and John so different? Why are almost all of the stories from John not found in the Synoptic Gospels? It's clear that John tells a much different story of Jesus' life than the rest, but why? No virgin birth, no temptation in the desert, virtually no parables, and no trial before the Jewish council. 

If you consider that John was the last Gospel written you can start to put together why John tells a different story. In Mark (the first Gospel written) Jesus is explicit in telling his followers that, "Truly I tell you, some of those standing here will not taste death before they see the Kingdom of God having come in power." (Mark 9:1) Now John would have a hard time believing this since pretty much everyone that would have been present for that speech had already died. So John tells a different story, he modifies it slightly and instead of the kingdom coming to Earth (as in Mark), the kingdom of god is already here, but in heaven. This is how John reconciles the fact that all of those people died without the coming of the kingdom. A clever fix, but again, John had no way of knowing that his Gospel would be juxtaposed with Marks, who clearly tells it a different way. 

So who do we believe here? How do we go about deciding which author is the most credible, and are any of them credible? Sure many of the differences are minor, but plenty are irreconcilable differences that must be addressed. In John Jesus performs many "signs" and is the only Gospel that hints at a preexistence of Jesus as a divine being. He also continually uses the "I am" quotes and stresses his own divinity. In Mark, Jesus rarely talks about himself and is more focused on god and the kingdom of heaven. Why do we see such different faces of Jesus in these Gospels? Again, the answer can be found in looking at the message each author was trying to purvey. John wanted it to be clear that Jesus was god and he performed "signs" to prove this in his account. In Matthew Jesus refuses to perform miracles to prove his divinity and only uses miracles to help those in need, and actually refuses to perform any miracle (except his Resurrection) for the Jewish leaders.

These are just a few differences and as I said, virtually all of the stories in John (the passion accounts being the exception here) are not found in the Synoptic Gospels. So it's clear that these authors all had their own stories to tell and they didn't have the idea of their stories being combined with others at a later date. This is why we see such differences, they weren't so worried about historical accuracy as they were with getting across their own idea of salvation and who Jesus was. There is nothing wrong with this, but it's important to keep in mind that these authors have their own voices independent of each other, and there own interpretation of Jesus' teachings.

So we come back to asking who's account, if any, is the most trustworthy and how can we know? They can't all have it right, the differences are too many. We will explore why the bible was put together the way it is at a later date (in the historical portion of this series) and who chose to include these books in the canon. 

  • A Quick Note on Paul


There are 27 books in the New Testament and Paul is credited with writing at least 13 of them. Interestingly, Paul was writing years before our Gospels were written, at least 10-15 years before our earliest, Mark. Paul is the man responsible for the idea that a staunch belief that Jesus died on the cross for your sins was all that is necessary for your salvation. In fact, he suggests that strict adherence to Jewish law (the 10 Commandments) is actually more harmful to your salvation because you risk trying to earn your salvation instead of accepting Jesus' gift. 

This stands at direct odds with what Matthew had to say. In Matthew 5:17-20, Jesus is quite explicit in saying that you must strictly obey the laws to gain entry to heaven (in addition to believing in him, of course). So who has it right? It can't be both, Paul in Galatians 2:15-16 says the opposite and hints that we are at danger of losing salvation if we try too much to fulfill the law.

It's obvious that if the Gospel writers ever read any of Paul's letters, they didn't think them divinely inspired, why else would they differ so much in opinion on salvation? Being that Paul authored nearly half of the books in the NT it would stand to reason that his accounts represent the ideas that were chosen to represent the Christian faith. But why does he differ so much on what is essentially the most important issue, the issue of salvation? Again we are left to ask, which account is true? I can not only believe in Jesus' sacrifice and not focus on the law while at the same time strictly adhering to the laws. 

One more quick difference with Paul and the Gospel writers can be seen in Acts (written by Luke). In Acts Paul gives a sermon to a group of pagans and notes that god has overlooked their ignorance in worshiping idols and only wants them to repent. However, in Romans Paul tells quite the opposite story. He openly condemns them for "willfully" worshiping idols and tells them the wrath of god will come upon them. Naturally here we expect Paul to know better what his view on this was, but why does Luke's account stand at such odds with it? Again we have an instance where both accounts simply cannot coexist. 

In closing, here we have seen just how different the stories in the NT are and we have demonstrated that certain points cannot be overlooked. We have seen fallibility in the bible and exposed a chink in its armor. If the bible cannot even agree with itself, how do we know what to agree with? Once again I will state that there are many other examples of these discrepancies, but I'm already getting too long winded here. I encourage you to look into this on your own time and read the verses objectively with an open mind.

Again, this isn't an attempt to lead people away from faith, only an attempt to lead people away from extremism. If the bible can be openly shown to be fallible, then it can no longer be used as an inerrant word of god that can justify any acts. When a book is as big as the bible and has as many contradicting verses, it becomes a dangerous tool for the zealot. You can find a verse within it to justify almost any act, but how do we know which ones are truly divinely inspired? How do we know if any of them are?

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  • Public Discussion (40)
Presence247

I realize this was a longer article than I normally like to do so if you read the whole thing, thank you very much and I hope you enjoyed.

I look forward to hearing your thoughts and I hope you found something interesting here. I'm open for discussion on this and as always I enjoy a good debate! Please keep in mind the CoH and try and stay on topic here.

I will be putting out the next article on the historicity of the NT later. Thanks again for stopping by!

  • 2 votes
Reply#1 - Sun Feb 19, 2012 1:40 PM EST
Clara Listensprechen

Your article doesn't differentiate between different versions of Bible and presumes a non-existant, singular "Christian Bible" when there's no such thing at all. Different versions will have shorter or longer Gospels depending on the version.

Both Mark and Luke were Paul's contemporaries, with Mark, aka John, eventually having a falling-out with Paul and Luke was Paul's medic, a guy he picked up on his way through Macedonia.

    #1.1 - Sun Feb 19, 2012 6:08 PM EST
    Clara Listensprechen

    I suppose I should add what I recently pointed out in a similar discussion on another website: the synoptic Gospels aren't really that and you do need to take an even closer look at these than you did in your article to see the glaring differences.

    Mark was the first to be written, and Mark was a friend of Paul and Barnabas. Paul and Mark had a falling out and kicked out Mark first, and then Barnabas for taking Mark's side. I'll agree that Matthew's Gospel is dependent on Mark's, but it's a Persian flavored Gospel. It's the only Gospel referring to Jesus as a Shah (this is the origin of the line about Jesus being "king of kings") and it's the only Gospel to give the Nativity story with Persian Magist priests coming to worship Jesus as a fellow Magician.

    Luke, as I said, is a doctor that Paul picked up when he traipsed through Macedonia, and that factoid is extractable from both Acts and a couple of Paul's Epistles. John is just 'way out in orbit but clearly aware that he was 'way out of Jesus' time frame, as evidenced by the last few paragraphs in his Gospel, where he tells a tale about overhearing an argument between Peter and Jesus about the POSSIBILITY that Jesus wanted John alive for his Second Coming.

      #1.2 - Sun Feb 19, 2012 6:26 PM EST
      Presence247

      Your article doesn't differentiate between different versions of Bible and presumes a non-existant, singular "Christian Bible" when there's no such thing at all. Different versions will have shorter or longer Gospels depending on the version.

      This is why I wrote on stories that are shared stories between two or more gospels. The birth of Jesus in Luke and Matthew is pretty much the same regardless or the particular translation you choose. They are still very different accounts.

      Thank you for sharing your thoughts, I'm curious as to what you think about the actual names of the authors. Are you of the mind that the Gospels were written by the actual apostles or do you agree that they were pseudonymously written?

      Thanks again for reading and giving feedback!

        #1.3 - Sun Feb 19, 2012 7:05 PM EST
        Clara Listensprechen

        Well, the biggest problem is that the presumption that the stories are the same is not correct. Some Gospel versions are shorter or longer depending on the version so some stories are told and others not.

        I'm an atheist because I've read and re-read different versions of Bible, and in one of my re-reads I paid attention to the names used, which is how I found out that Mark's "real" name is John, and that he was one of Paul's buddies.

        Bibles play an elaborate game with names, and I expect a great deal of why that is has to do with security during rebellious times, and it's also why I strongly suspect that Jesus' real name was Simon. The Zealot. Also the timeline is skewed to protect the theology. Taking the view from the records that the Romans kept, there was no Jesus according to THEM. Not one that was crucified, but there WAS a big hairy deal about the crucifixion of a Simon during the time of one of the guys Paul wrote to: Titus.

        I am of the opinion that the people whose writings appear in the New Testament all track back to Paul, even the ones with Peter's name on them, and the name games played in the New Testament were to obscure the immediate traceability of their actual origins among the rebels.

          #1.4 - Sun Feb 19, 2012 7:13 PM EST
          Reply
          Rank on Rank

          Presence247

          Are all your articles to be based upon your personal misunderstanding of the New Testament Scriptures?

          You're so clearly confused by and about the New Testament.

          Only those people who don't know the Bible will fall for it.

          • 1 vote
          Reply#2 - Sun Feb 19, 2012 2:20 PM EST
          Grisham

          Explain point by point where Presence went wrong, please.

          Presence,

          Good job and you obviously put a lot of work into this article. Nicely done. I will wait to see if Rank can come up with something more substantial than 'you're wrong'.

          • 3 votes
          #2.1 - Sun Feb 19, 2012 2:37 PM EST
          Presence247

          Rank,

          I appreciate your stopping by and reading, but I have to ask, like Grisham, where I went wrong. I merely quoted the bible objectively. I look forward to hearing where my perceived misunderstandings are.

          Only those people who don't know the Bible will fall for it.

          I'm not sure what you mean by fall for it. I have no hidden agenda here, there is nothing to "fall for". My aim, as was stated multiple times throughout the article, is to encourage people to read the bible objectively instead of through the (rosy) lenses of their faith. If, after reading it this way you still believe it to be the inerrant word of god, that's fine too. All too often people don't hear this side of the bible because this is not how it is presented in your local church. I know I was never read the bible in this manner, but I believe it is important to do your own reading and make you own decisions rather than be told what the bible is saying by a preacher.

          I believe it is inherently backwards to assume something is infallible and look for evidence that supports it rather than to look for evidence first, then make an opinion afterwards.

          Grish,

          Thanks for stopping by and reading, and I'm glad you enjoyed it. I will be standing by for Ranks response as well.

          • 2 votes
          #2.2 - Sun Feb 19, 2012 3:21 PM EST
          Reply
          A radicial idea

          The violence of the Old Testament is only surpassed by the New Testament. In the OT god invited all sorts of indignities and horrors upon individuals and tribes but he was through with you when you were dead. It took the meek and mild rabbi jesus to introduce to the world the idea of a burning and suffering eternal hell. No longer did we receive respite at death from a vengeful and petty god but now there is a place of eternal punishment. Humanity cannot win. The price of salvation is to engage in the torture and execution of jesus an act if I were present at I would have tried to stop it or I like to think I would. This act reminds me of the ancient Aztecs who each morning before dawn would rip open someone’s chest a rip their still beating heart out so that the sun would rise. I want no part of jesus’ sacrifice I am too nice a person for that.

          • 4 votes
          Reply#3 - Sun Feb 19, 2012 3:42 PM EST
          Presence247

          Very true, thank you radical. It's a cosmic good cop, bad cop act but I'm not sure which is which!

            #3.1 - Sun Feb 19, 2012 7:07 PM EST
            Reply
            smithichie

            Explain point by point where Presence went wrong, please.

            Here you go summed up in a single sentence.

            I encourage you to look into this on your own time and read the verses objectively with an open mind.

            Don't you know the bible isn't to be read objectively? You're supposed to already believe going into it so you can believe away all the glaring errors.

            I think Presence247 raises an interesting point with their quick note on Paul on just how widely he differs from earlier gospel in that I think many of today's Christians should really be called Paulians or maybe Paulites. Paul was the Joseph Smith of his day and I think in many ways the schism between Christians who follow the Matthew route to heaven (good works) and those who follow Paul's (believe the right way) is as wide as the gulf between present day Mormons and other modern Christians.

            • 1 vote
            Reply#4 - Sun Feb 19, 2012 4:16 PM EST
            Presence247

            Don't you know the bible isn't to be read objectively? You're supposed to already believe going into it so you can believe away all the glaring errors.

            Haha good point, you're right I blew that one!

            Thanks for commenting, I agree on your assessment of modern Christians, or Paulites, and their link to Paul. I was subtly pointing to that since, as you point out, the chasm between Paul and Matthew is enormous and they both speak with such certainty in their own points.

            • 1 vote
            #4.1 - Sun Feb 19, 2012 4:41 PM EST
            Clara Listensprechen

            I concur with the statement "isn't to be read objectively" and I'm sure the "rightly divided word" people will set y'all straight about that. ;)

              #4.2 - Sun Feb 19, 2012 6:14 PM EST
              Reply
              A radicial idea

              Look but do not touch

              Touch but do not taste

              Taste but do not enjoy

              Enjoy but abstain

              Abstain but do not question

              Question but do not think

              Think but do not act

              Act but do not sin

              Sin but do not worry

              We got your back

              Because Christ was tortured executed died for your sins. The whole of the OT and NT combined. Since atheism is not a belief system I follow the dictates of my neocortex. I find it a superior system of thought and belief.

              • 2 votes
              Reply#5 - Sun Feb 19, 2012 5:09 PM EST
              frenchjr56

              I am going to say this about what you put forth about the birth of Jesus as written by Matthew and Luke. In Matthew's account i read of only what the angel told Joseph to after Mary was pregnant; what Joseph had decided to secretly divorce her, the angel came to him in a dream, not announcing that she was pregnant. In Luke's account the angel came with the news of her becoming pregnant, to Mary. Theses are two separate situations, writers giving their perspective on the story.

              In your comments about this you mention the 'star', which guides the men from the east; which first takes them to Jerusalem to Herod and then to the HOUSE, not the manger, where the young child was. but most of the world keeps showing the scene as at the manger, with the shepherds and the men from the east, which is scripturally incorrect.

              Isaiah 7:14:" Therefore Jehovah himself will give you men a sign: Look! The maiden herself will actually become pregnant, and she is giving birth to a son, and she will certainly call his name Immmanuel." I agree with you about what the Bible says about the young woman at this scripture but she was a chaste woman having had no man before Joseph, in other words she was a virgin![Luke 1:26,27,34]

              You have on this list the account of Jarius; why? Mark's recollection is much more than Matthew's so what. are the basic facts there? Yes, Jesus went into the home and raised the small child from the dead, both accounts are true. The same colored sweater one; short sleeved the other is vee-necked. You are nit picking, now this is not contradiction.

              Mark 9:40, is a part verse taken out of context from the preceding verses 38, 39. reading it completely one would get the complete sense of what Jesus was saying when he said "for he that is not against us is for us." you say then that verse at Matthew 12:30 could not be also true if the verse at Mark is true. Well they are both true. The verse makes sense when read in context which does not happen much any more. the scene is Jesus has just cured a demon possessed man and the crowd is marvel at what just happened. they say: "May this not perhaps be the Son of David?" The Pharisees chime in claiming that Jesus has rid this man of demons by the ruler of demons Beelzebub. Verse 25-29, Jesus was trying to reason with them on how this was impossible to happen, how can a divided house stand, how can an intruder invade a strong man house if he does not bind the strong man first. Then Jesus says:"He that is not on my side is against me, and he that does not gather with me scatters." both verses are true.

              Jesus ministered for three and a half years, from the time he was baptized til his death.

              The death of Jesus Christ took place in the spring, on the Passover day, Nisan (or Abib) 14, according to the Jewish calendar. (MT 26:2; Joh 13:1-3; Ex 12:1-6; 13:4) That year the Passover occurred on the sixth day of the week (counted by the Jews as from sundown on Thursday to sundown on Friday). This is evident from John 19:31, which shows that the following day was "a great" sabbath. The day after Passover was always a sabbath, no matter on what day of the week it came. (Lev 23:5-7) But when this special Sabbath coincided with the regular Sabbath (the seventh day of the week), it became "a great one." So Jesus' death took place on Friday, Nisan 14, by about 3:00p.m. [Luke 23:44-46]

              Nisan 14... Passover meal eaten w/12 ;evening meal w/ 11; arrested; trial by Sanhedrin; before Pilate and Herod, delivered to death. Dies on torture stake; body removed and buried. (sundown and morning - one day)

              Nisan 15...Priests and Pharisees get guard for the tomb (sundown and morning - two days)

              Nisan 16...Jesus' resurrection and events of that day; subsequent appearances of Jesus Christ(sundown and morning-three days..and NIGHTS, as he said in the earth from their calendar.)

              The Bible states the stone was rolled away:

              Matthew 28:2:"..and rolled away the stone.."

              Mark 16:4: "..that the stone had been rolled away..."

              Luke 24:2: "..found the stone rolled away..."

              John 20:1:"..the stone already taken away..."

              All four accounts telling the stone being removed, when whom ever got there. They also mention some form of angelic intervention. your point? it does not call for contradiction if I remember that you came down broadway to the scene and did this but someone else recalls another facet of the same incident. You seem to want identical recall for this to be true , but i thought this was written by human beings, people. Matthew was a tax collector am I right, Luke a physician.Their writing styles would be more precise than Peter or John who were learning as they went along with Christ. Luke was writing his account to present an accurate record in logical order, verifying the certainty of oral teaching. Luke would have had access to written record and eyewitnesses to when Paul was imprisonment in Caesarea.

              They are different, not contradictory.

              • 1 vote
              Reply#6 - Sun Feb 19, 2012 11:35 PM EST
              Clara Listensprechen

              You're not right--the interpretation of Matthew being a tax collector was in fact a fanciful connection of Matthew = Levi when there's no scripture to back that up. Jesus is reported in one Gospel to have worn red to his trial, another reports purple and a matter of eyesight is NOT nitpicking, because neither Gospel reported that he wore red AND purple.

              Luke admits to writing what was hearsay as a product of his investigation. He admitted he was no eye witness in the first few lines of his Gospel. Try again.

              • 1 vote
              #6.1 - Mon Feb 20, 2012 12:12 AM EST
              TruettCollins
            • Matthew (Matthew 9:9) - "And as Jesus passed on from there, He saw a man, called Matthew, sitting in the tax office; and He *said to him, "Follow Me!" And he rose, and followed Him."
            • Levi (Mark 2:14) - "And as He passed by, He saw Levi the son of Alphaeus sitting in the tax office, and He *said to him, "Follow Me!" And he rose and followed Him."
            • Levi (Luke 5:27) - "And after that He went out, and noticed a tax-gatherer named Levi, sitting in the tax office, and He said to him, "Follow Me."
            • Luke opens up by saying that he is writting about things belived...and goes on to say that his writings are from eyewitnesses...he nowhere claims anything else.

              • 2 votes
              #6.2 - Mon Feb 20, 2012 10:30 AM EST
              Clara Listensprechen

              Not everyone who sits in a tax office is a tax collector. There are usually more taxpayers than tax collectors in a tax office. Just sayin'. It's still a stretch. And it looks like Levi outvotes Matthew as the name of the collector.

              Ya, it's true that NT guys have multiple names, but you don't have any definite connection other than just the office room...and there's the matter of different name lists for the Apostles. That's not the only name that doesn't always match up, either.

              • 1 vote
              #6.3 - Mon Feb 20, 2012 2:26 PM EST
              TruettCollins
            • Matthew (Matthew 9:9) - "And as Jesus passed on from there, He saw a man, called Matthew, sitting in the tax office; and He *said to him, "Follow Me!" And he rose, and followed Him."
            • Levi (Mark 2:14) - "And as He passed by, He saw Levi the son of Alphaeus sitting in the tax office, and He *said to him, "Follow Me!" And he rose and followed Him."
            • Levi (Luke 5:27) - "And after that He went out, and noticed a tax-gatherer named Levi, sitting in the tax office, and He said to him, "Follow Me."
              • 1 vote
              #6.4 - Mon Feb 20, 2012 6:36 PM EST
              DaveB001

              You're not right--the interpretation of Matthew being a tax collector was in fact a fanciful connection of Matthew = Levi when there's no scripture to back that up.

              Ahem...

              Matthew 10:3-4 "Philip and Bartholomew; Thomas and Matthew the tax collector; James the [son] of Alphaeus, and Thaddaeus; Simon the Cananaean, and Judas Iscariot, who later betrayed him."

              Jesus is reported in one Gospel to have worn red to his trial, another reports purple and a matter of eyesight is NOT nitpicking, because neither Gospel reported that he wore red AND purple.

              Since the term "purple" can refer to a range of colors that combine red and blue, John and Mark are in agreement that the cloak placed on Jesus had a reddish hue. Of course, a colored surface can appear differently depending on the lighting and it's entirely possible that Mark and John were simply describing the same color as it appeared to them or whomever they got their information from. This small descriptive variation in the naratives is a good example of the individuality of the writers and tends to demonstrate that there was no collusion between them.

              • 2 votes
              #6.5 - Mon Feb 20, 2012 7:33 PM EST
              Clara Listensprechen

              I'm so sure Matthew refers to himself in the 3rd person. There's another problem: what Bible version you guys are quoting. If it's NIV, it's a FAIL because they've reworded a LOT of stuff to make things look more compliant with Christian claims, like their rewording of "You say I am" when Jesus answers a question from Pilot about who he really is. NIV also claims that the Mediterranean gets nor'easter storms, too, so if y'all want to be convincing, quote a version of Bible that hasn't been tinkered with, like, say, the King James Authorized. Original. Or Septuagint, or earlier version of Catholic Bible.

              Toss out that NIV, it's garbage.

                #6.6 - Tue Feb 21, 2012 12:38 AM EST
                DaveB001

                I'm so sure Matthew refers to himself in the 3rd person.

                The scripture you claimed did not exist has just been quoted for you. Your "response" seems to have missed that point.

                what Bible version you guys are quoting. If it's NIV, it's a FAIL because

                It's not. But thank you for your note of concern.

                  #6.7 - Tue Feb 21, 2012 2:38 AM EST
                  KElane

                  . . . quote a version of Bible that hasn't been tinkered with, like, say, the King James Authorized.

                  I heard that the KJV is full of errors. Something a person would want to investigate for sure. One of the reasons I don't rely on the KJV is [number one] the Divine Name was removed and replaced with LORD or GOD. Another reason is the one word for Sheol [Hades in Greek] was translated as Hell, Grave, Pit--that Gehenna in the Greek scriptures was replaced with Hell. Lottsa tinkering going on here.

                  If there's any version that has suffered 'tinkering with', I'd say it's the KJV.

                  • 1 vote
                  #6.8 - Wed Feb 22, 2012 3:43 PM EST
                  Reply
                  Presence247

                  First, thank you for commenting French and thank you for taking time to read, your feedback is welcome.

                  In your comments about this you mention the 'star', which guides the men from the east; which first takes them to Jerusalem to Herod and then to the HOUSE, not the manger, where the young child was. but most of the world keeps showing the scene as at the manger, with the shepherds and the men from the east, which is scripturally incorrect.

                  The scene at the manger is not scripturally incorrect at all, Luke is quite explicit here that there was no room in the inn, they instead went to the stable. "7 and she gave birth to her firstborn, a son. She wrapped him in cloths and placed him in a manger, because there was no guest room available for them." This is scripture, and just what I meant about irreconcilable differences. It cannot be that Jesus both lived in Bethlehem (as in Matthew) and traveled to Bethlehem due to an empire wide census, resulting in his birth in a manger. Matthew and Luke tell very different stories of Jesus' birth.

                  In Matthew there were guards at the tomb which was sealed and after Mary Magdalene and "the other Mary" show up there is an earthquake and an angel rolls the stone away. In Luke when the women arrive the stone is already gone and Jesus is no longer there. Also in this account two men show up and tell them he has risen, they don't say angels but I will assume that's what he meant for the sake of argument (however one would think you could tell the difference). This account is still different and he also states that there is at least 5 women who went there together. In John, Mary goes alone and again the stone is already removed when she gets there. No angels, no guards, no one at all and she finds the tomb empty. In Mark three women go and once again the stone is already moved when they show up, there is one man inside when they go in. These are not saying the same thing and it's not nit picking when you're asking questions of an infallible holy text. Regardless if it is written by men, it is to be divinely inspired and therefore, infallible.

                  I will concede some issues here are nit picking but when people cherry pick bible verses to fulfill there own agendas, it's fair game to prove that you can make the bible say whatever you'd like. My point is only that taking a literal, word for word, interpretation of the bible is dangerous and not plausible. It's wrought with inconsistencies ranging from minor to major, and easily cherry picked.

                  As far as the date of Jesus' death as well as the time I will address that later in the historical perspective (not to mention it's late and I'm still at work). Thank you again for commenting, your arguments are strong and I enjoy a good debate!

                  • 1 vote
                  Reply#7 - Mon Feb 20, 2012 1:40 AM EST
                  DaveB001

                  It cannot be that Jesus both lived in Bethlehem (as in Matthew) and traveled to Bethlehem due to an empire wide census, resulting in his birth in a manger.

                  The position you present is based on the assumption that the events recorded in Matthew chapter 2 occured immediately after Jesus' birth. But what is your scriptural basis for believing that? Please note that your idea conflicts with Herod's calculation, which indicated that Jesus could have been up to two years old by the time the magi came calling.

                  Matthew 2:16 "Then Herod, seeing he had been outwitted by the astrologers, fell into a great rage, and he sent out and had all the boys in Bethlehem and in all its districts done away with, from two years of age and under, according to the time that he had carefully ascertained from the astrologers."

                  Certainly Joseph and Mary would have had plenty of time to move to Bethlehem within the span of two years. Where is the supposed conflict?

                  • 2 votes
                  #7.1 - Mon Feb 20, 2012 7:49 PM EST
                  Clara Listensprechen

                  The Bible never has Jesus living in any town named Nazareth and yet y'all believe he did. Born in Bethlehem, lived in Capernaum--no Nazareth. C'mon already.

                    #7.2 - Tue Feb 21, 2012 12:40 AM EST
                    DaveB001

                    The Bible never has Jesus living in any town named Nazareth and yet y'all believe he did. Born in Bethlehem, lived in Capernaum--no Nazareth. C'mon already.

                    Some Bible reading for you...

                    Matthew 2:22, 23 "But hearing that Archelaus ruled as king of Judea instead of his father Herod, he became afraid to depart for there. Moreover, being given divine warning in a dream, he withdrew into the territory of Galilee, and came and dwelt in a city named Nazareth, that there might be fulfilled what was spoken through the prophets: “He will be called a Nazarene.”

                    Matthew 21:10, 11 "Now when he entered into Jerusalem, the whole city was set in commotion, saying: “Who is this?” The crowds kept telling: “This is the prophet Jesus, from Nazareth of Galilee!”

                    Mark 1:9 "In the course of those days Jesus came from Nazareth of Galilee and was baptized in the Jordan by John."

                    Luke 2:39, 40 "So when they had carried out all the things according to the law of Jehovah, they went back into Galilee to their own city Nazareth. And the young child continued growing and getting strong, being filled with wisdom, and God’s favor continued upon him."

                    Luke 2:51, 52 "And he went down with them and came to Nazareth, and he continued subject to them. Also, his mother carefully kept all these sayings in her heart. And Jesus went on progressing in wisdom and in physical growth and in favor with God and men."

                    John 1:45, 46 "Philip found Nathanael and said to him: “We have found the one of whom Moses, in the Law, and the Prophets wrote, Jesus, the son of Joseph, from Nazareth.” But Nathanael said to him: “Can anything good come out of Nazareth?” Philip said to him: “Come and see.”

                    Acts 10:37, 38 "You know the subject that was talked about throughout the whole of Judea, starting from Galilee after the baptism that John preached, namely, Jesus who was from Nazareth, how God anointed him with holy spirit and power, and he went through the land doing good and healing all those oppressed by the Devil; because God was with him."

                    • 2 votes
                    #7.3 - Tue Feb 21, 2012 3:02 AM EST
                    Presence247

                    The position you present is based on the assumption that the events recorded in Matthew chapter 2 occuredimmediately after Jesus' birth. But what is your scriptural basis for believing that? Please note that your idea conflicts with Herod's calculation, which indicated that Jesus could have been up to two years old by the time the magi came calling.

                    Then why doesn't Matthew EVER mention an empire wide census? Something of that magnitude and importance would not be left out. And why does Luke completely leave out that whole mass infanticide thing? He didn't find it noteworthy?

                    I'm not saying that these guys had it right, I'm asking why their stories are SO different. They aren't just kinda different here and there, in fact they only agree on two things! Born of a virgin, in Bethlehem. The only way you can reconcile that is to say they are two sides to one story? Come on.

                    What you're doing amounts to, as I said above, creating you own 5th Gospel to iron out all of the kinks. Don't get me wrong, that's what they tried to do at the Council of Nicaea, but that's another story for a different day.

                    There is no good explanation for these two men supposedly telling the same story and it coming out so dramatically different. And honestly, Matthew sounds quite suspicious with his insistence on this birth fulfilling prophecy. The prophecy he is quoting is almost certainly referring to an event in the near future and does not ever mention a Messiah. Given the context of Isa 7:14 and the current conflict, scholars reject the interpretation of it with several points, they see Isaiah referring to a sign during the time of Ahaz, demonstrating before the child has the knowledge, to refuse “Wrong and right” the two kings of Israel and Syria will be destroyed. They say this is a near term sign, and does not refer a Messiah.

                      #7.4 - Tue Feb 21, 2012 2:07 PM EST
                      DaveB001

                      Then why doesn't Matthew EVER mention an empire wide census? Something of that magnitude and importance would not be left out. And why does Luke completely leave out that whole mass infanticide thing? He didn't find it noteworthy?

                      Why do you feel it is necessary for the writers to cover an identical list of details? If they had, as though one had copied from the other, would that convince you that the accounts were accurate? It would indicate plagiarism to me.

                      The only way you can reconcile that is to say they are two sides to one story?

                      Certainly. A careful reading shows that the various details of the accounts mesh relatively easily. As in the example of the magi already discussed, it's often a matter of the reader combining their own assumptions with the accounts that results in them appearing to contradict. And, just as with the magi, a closer examination of the accounts often yields a better understanding. You've commented at length on how each account includes various details about Jesus' birth and youth that not included in the other, but there's no contradiction in merely that. Are there other specific details in the two accounts that you are unable to reconcile in your reading? I would be glad to examine them with you in the interest of helping you come to a more complete understanding of what the scriptures are sharing, if that is what you seek.

                      What you're doing amounts to, as I said above, creating you own 5th Gospel to iron out all of the kinks.

                      No, it's merely reading the Bible as a whole.

                      Matthew sounds quite suspicious with his insistence on this birth fulfilling prophecy.

                      Please note that both Matthew and Luke are very clear on the fact that Mary was a virgin who became pregnant by means of God’s holy spirit.(Matthew 1:18-25; Luke 1:26-35)

                      Given the context of Isa 7:14 and the current conflict, scholars reject the interpretation of it with several points, they see Isaiah referring to a sign during the time of Ahaz, demonstrating before the child has the knowledge, to refuse “Wrong and right” the two kings of Israel and Syria will be destroyed. They say this is a near term sign, and does not refer a Messiah.

                      It's noteworthy that such "scholars" ultimately assume their own interpretation to be superior to the scriptures themselves. They conclude that when an account confuses them or does not appear to agree with their presumptions, it must be the Bible that is incorrect rather than their interpretation of it. That sort of pomposity is why their efforts are doomed to fail. Satisfying the egocentrics among us is certainly not what God had in mind when he inspired the writing of the Bible. (1 Corinthians 1:18-21)

                      • 3 votes
                      #7.5 - Tue Feb 21, 2012 9:15 PM EST
                      Presence247

                      Yes I find it very curious indeed that something like mass infanticide and Jesus' family running for their lives for multiple years is only in one account. That's something all accounts should share.

                      They very much do copy Mark (and therefore, one another) word for word in other places that are of less significance so why leave something that major out? If you're honest about it you know it doesn't add up.

                      Also they both have different stories of where Jesus' family lived when he was born. If there was an empire wide census and that is why they were in Bethlehem then why does Matthew say they live there. That is not the same thing at all. Luke is quite explicit that they had to stay in a manger cause there was no room at the inn, they wouldn't need a room at the inn if they lived there. Also, they leave almost immediately after Jesus is born in Luke, the only thing they do there is the circumcision at the temple 8 days after his birth. Obviously they did not live there according to Luke.

                      It's also interesting that if Mark is the only gospel you ever had, which for many early Christians this was the case, you would never have any reason to suspect that Jesus' birth was special at all. Why is that? When the men wrote these books they weren't writing them with holes to be filled by other authors, they had no idea their books would be combined with others so they had no reason to leave out certain things they thought another person would cover. Frankly, a virgin birth is noteworthy and not something that would be omitted from a biography of any sort.

                      • 1 vote
                      #7.6 - Tue Feb 21, 2012 10:45 PM EST
                      TruettCollins

                      Presence247 - It is a fact that different people focus on different things. Even today if you take 20 people who wittiness an event, say a crime in progress, after the crime you will get 20 different stories.

                      • 1 vote
                      #7.7 - Tue Feb 21, 2012 11:52 PM EST
                      DaveB001

                      Yes I find it very curious indeed that something like mass infanticide and Jesus' family running for their lives for multiple years is only in one account. That's something all accounts should share.

                      There is evidence to indicate that Matthew's account was written first, with Luke's account being written about 15 years later. With the details concerning the infanticide already having been covered in Matthew's account, why do you feel that Luke would feel obligated to repeat them? If anything, Luke's account seems to be an careful effort to cover various details that he felt were worth mentioning which Matthew hadn't included in his account of the events surrounding Jesus' birth.

                      They very much do copy Mark (and therefore, one another) word for word in other places that are of less significance so why leave something that major out?

                      Actually, there is internal evidence from the scriptures as well as from other sources which tends to indicate that Mark's account was written after both of the other accounts. I include some information on this quoted from a Bible encyclopedia further down...

                      Also they both have different stories of where Jesus' family lived when he was born.

                      Please refer back to post #7.1 concerning the question of when Joseph and Mary lived in Bethlehem.

                      It's also interesting that if Mark is the only gospel you ever had, which for many early Christians this was the case,

                      As mentioned previously, evidently Mark's account was actually the last of the three to be written:

                      Subscriptions, appearing at the end of Matthew’s Gospel in numerous manuscripts (all being later than the tenth century C.E.), say that the account was written about the eighth year after Christ’s ascension (c. 41 C.E.). This would not be at variance with internal evidence. The fact that no reference is made to the fulfillment of Jesus’ prophecy respecting Jerusalem’s destruction would point to a time of composition prior to 70 C.E. (Mt 5:35; 24:16) And the expression “to this very day” (27:8; 28:15) indicates a lapse of some time between the events considered and the time of writing.(Insight on the Scriptures, vol.2, p.352 "Matthew, Good News According to")

                      It was evidently before writing the book of Acts that Luke completed his Gospel. (Ac 1:1, 2) Since he had accompanied Paul to Jerusalem at the end of the apostle’s third missionary journey (Ac 21:15-17), he would have been in a good position to trace accurately the things pertaining to Jesus Christ in the very land where the Son of God had carried out his activity. Following Paul’s arrest at Jerusalem and during Paul’s later imprisonment in Caesarea, Luke would have had many opportunities to interview eyewitnesses and to consult written records. So it is reasonable to conclude that the Gospel may have been written at Caesarea sometime during Paul’s confinement there for about two years (c. 56-58 C.E.).—Ac 21:30-33; 23:26-35; 24:27.(Insight on the Scriptures, vol.2, p.282 "Luke, Good News According to")

                      According to ancient tradition, Mark’s Gospel was first made public in Rome, this being the testimony of such early writers as Clement, Eusebius, and Jerome. Mark was in Rome during Paul’s first imprisonment there. (Col 4:10; Phm 1, 23, 24) Thereafter he was with Peter in Babylon. (1Pe 5:13) Then, during Paul’s second imprisonment in Rome, Paul asked that Timothy come soon and bring Mark with him. (2Ti 4:11) Probably Mark did then return to Rome. Since no mention is made of Jerusalem’s destruction in fulfillment of Jesus’ prophecy, Mark must have compiled his account before that event in 70 C.E. His presence in Rome at least once, and likely twice, during the years 60-65 C.E. suggests that Mark may have completed his Gospel there sometime during those years.(Insight on the Scriptures, vol.2, p.337 "Mark, Good News According to")

                      • 3 votes
                      #7.8 - Wed Feb 22, 2012 12:06 AM EST
                      Presence247

                      It is a fact that different people focus on different things. Even today if you take 20 people who wittiness an event, say a crime in progress, after the crime you will get 20 different stories.

                      Yes that is true, however, important details will remain. People will not simply leave out (that is to say make absolutely NO mention of it) large portions of information just to tell their view. An empire wide census where everyone is returning to their ancestral homelands, is noteworthy, mass infanticide is noteworthy. Not something likely to be left out, be honest.

                      Dave

                      Your comment in 7.1 does not solve anything. Luke says they immediately returned to Nazareth after 8 days. Are you suggesting that they went back to Nazareth then moved BACK to Bethlehem (to have a home there as in Matthew) only to flee Bethlehem later, go into hiding for 3+ years then move BACK to Nazareth? Really?

                      As far as your assertions that Mark was the last Gospel written, you are the only person I have ever heard claim that (aside from the quotes you posted that you didn't cite, I'm not sure how trustworthy they are, no offense). Even the pastors at churches I attended claimed that Mark was first written, and there is near unanimity among biblical scholars that this is the case.

                      That being said, as I said above, these guys were not writing these gospels with the idea in mind that they were going to be joined with others. What I mean is, they had no reason not to include everything they thought noteworthy. They weren't reading each others manuscripts thinking, "Ok Matthew covered that topic, I'll talk about some other areas he missed." That's simply not how this book came about.

                      • 1 vote
                      #7.9 - Wed Feb 22, 2012 1:38 PM EST
                      TruettCollins

                      As far as the Romans were concerned Bethlehem, was an insignificant and very small town. It probably had a population of no more than 500 - 600 people. Micah 5:2 it says, "But as for you, Bethlehem Ephrathah, too little to be among the clans of Judah, from you One will go forth for Me to be ruler in Israel. If there were as many as 600 people in Bethlehem, how many children would have been under the age of two? Ten, twenty, thirty? Whatever the number, it would not have been hundreds. It would have been relatively few. Add to this the fact that Herod was known for committing horrendous crimes against people and you could see why this event in an insignificant village in the Jewish area, might be ignored. Then you add to it all the things that were going on in the empire at the time the death of even 80 or 90 children in a small town would have drawn little attention.

                      "It is known that Quirinius was made governor of Syria by Augustus in AD 6. Archaeologist Sir William Ramsay discovered several inscriptions that indicated that Quirinius was governor of Syria on two occasions, the first time several years prior to this date...archaeology has provided some unexpected and supportive answers. Additionally, while supplying the background behind these events, archaeology also assists us in establishing several facts. (1) A taxation-census was a fairly common procedure in the Roman Empire and it did occur in Judea, in particular. (2) Persons were required to return to their home city in order to fulfill the requirements of the process. (3) These procedures were apparently employed during the reign of Augustus (37 BC–AD 14), placing it well within the general time frame of Jesus’ birth." Habermas, Gary R., The Historical Jesus: Ancient Evidence for the Life of Christ, Joplin, MO: College Press Publishing Company, 1996.

                        #7.10 - Wed Feb 22, 2012 2:12 PM EST
                        DaveB001

                        Your comment in 7.1 does not solve anything. Luke says they immediately returned to Nazareth after 8 days. Are you suggesting that they went back to Nazareth then moved BACK to Bethlehem (to have a home there as in Matthew) only to flee Bethlehem later, go into hiding for 3+ years then move BACK to Nazareth? Really?

                        Their trip to Nazareth was precisely that: A trip. Do I believe it's possible that their brief stay in Bethlehem might have convinced them to move there relatively soon thereafter? It certainly sounds reasonable. Better business opportunities for a carpenter like Joseph. No doubt better living conditions and resources in the larger community. It makes sense. They then went into hiding--and returned--as a result of angelic direction. Why did they move back to Nazareth rather than return to Bethlehem? The reason is clearly explained for us by Matthew:

                        Matthew 2:22 "But hearing that Archelaus ruled as king of Judea instead of his father Herod, he became afraid to depart for there. Moreover, being given divine warning in a dream, he withdrew into the territory of Galilee, and came and dwelt in a city named Nazareth, that there might be fulfilled what was spoken through the prophets: "He will be called a Nazarene."

                        When Joseph learned that Herod's own son was now in power, he wisely decided to keep his distance. Hence the return to another place they were familiar with: Nazareth.

                        As far as your assertions that Mark was the last Gospel written, you are the only person I have ever heard claim that (aside from the quotes you posted that you didn't cite, I'm not sure how trustworthy they are, no offense).

                        Kindly look again and you'll notice that I did include citations to the Bible encyclopedia I used for that information at the end of each quote.

                        Even the pastors at churches I attended claimed that Mark was first written, and there is near unanimity among biblical scholars that this is the case.

                        It's important to realize that it's not as though all such ones independently came to that same conclusion. In reality, it's merely what they get taught in most theological courses. It's certainly a very serious accusation: Literally accusing the Bible writers of plagarism and lying. Many are apparently content to simply parrot such an attack on the Bible, assuming it to be true. But I find some diligent research to be far superior to simply accepting such hearsay out of hand. Here are the basic facts of the matter: The idea that Mark's account came first originated among Bible critics in the 19th century. The supposed document "Q" (derived from the German term "Quelle" (meaning "source")) is merely hypothesized to have existed, for no fragment, quote, reference or other actual evidence of it has ever been found to exist. The critics assumed Mark based his writings on this imagined document and that the other gospel writers plagarized him. An assumption built on a hypothesis. The claim suggests that Mark's gospel was written first because it contains the least amount of independent information, and that the others then copied and built on his writing. However, when one takes the time to actually study Mark's account, rather than just basing their understanding of it on the attacks of naysayers, they come to the fascinating realization that, despite being the smallest of the three accounts by far, Mark's account actually contains over 180 details and passages that are not included in either Matthew's or Luke's accounts. Some examples: Mark 3:5; Mark 3:17; Mark 5:26; Mark 6:19, 20; Mark 6:31; Mark 7:2-4; Mark 10:16; Mark 10:21; Mark 13:3; Mark 14:51,52; Mark 4:26-29; Mark 7:32-37; Mark 8:22-26. As baseless accusations about the Bible go, the "plagarism derived from Q" idea is perhaps one of the weakest. Ultimately, it amounts to the guesswork of critics that has been repeated often enough to be viewed as a fact, at least for some.

                        That being said, as I said above, these guys were not writing these gospels with the idea in mind that they were going to be joined with others. What I mean is, they had no reason not to include everything they thought noteworthy. They weren't reading each others manuscripts thinking, "Ok Matthew covered that topic, I'll talk about some other areas he missed." That's simply not how this book came about.

                        I understand that you believe such to be the case, but unless you have some evidence to provide which demonstrates what they were actually thinking and reading, such an idea remains, with all due respect, merely an opinion.

                        • 2 votes
                        #7.11 - Wed Feb 22, 2012 8:16 PM EST
                        Reply
                        frenchjr56

                        presence, i feel you misunderstand my comment about "the manger". Yes, he was born and was placed in a manger; this is borne out by scripture. My point is that most nativity scenes show all parties together, I think you mention this: the baby Jesus, the shepherds, and the men from the east, and the 'star'. this scene is incorrect. this is not scriptural, it is a collection of events that happen but put together, as a collage. The 'star' never leads the men from the east to the manger to see a baby Jesus, when they find Jesus Joseph and Mary are in a house and he is called a "young child", not still in a manger. This is my point.

                        You mention the account in Matthew about the rolling away of the stone, I have a question; in the KJV, it reads; " And, behold, there was a great earthquake; for the angel of the Lord descended from heaven, and came and rolled back the stone from the door, and sat upon it."

                        "And, notice! a great earthquake HAD taken place; for Jehovah's angel had descended from heaven and approached and rolled away the stone, and was sitting on it."( New World Translation)

                        In the KJVersion it seems that the women were there when the earthquake occurred, that the person writing this account is doing it like a reporter, as if they are watching things take place. the earthquake then the appearance of the angel, his rolling away of the stone.

                        In the other version it had the sense stress of someone trying to recall from memory what was going on and was so written. do you so agree?

                          Reply#8 - Mon Feb 20, 2012 10:33 PM EST
                          Clara Listensprechen

                          Well, the NIV comes to mind immediately for re-tooled scripture. It's what they're notorious for, and it's what makes the NIV garbage.

                            #8.1 - Tue Feb 21, 2012 12:41 AM EST
                            Reply
                            Hiram-1381633

                            I can appreciate the effort put forth here and wish you well on your endeavors. However the veracity of Scripture has been addressed many, many times here on the Vine with each person presented their view. There are several questions and points that come to mind when I read one of these articles. First and foremost if you do not believe the bible is true why bother with it? It makes no sense to me to study a book that you do not believe in unless it is for the purpose of convincing others that you are right and they are wrong. Which in itself is a loosing battle as we all believe what we believe.

                            The next point is the concept of "open mind" which is in a sense an oxymoron. You ask thoise that believe in Scripture to read what you ahve written iwht an opne mind yet by the nature of the article you are showing that you do notave an open mind. One of your last statements in this artricle rings true of that fact. "f the bible can be openly shown to be fallible, then it can no longer be used as an inerrant word" The purpose of this article is based on your own presupposition that the Bible is flawed and you then set out to prove it.

                            First, let me establish that there is near unanimity among biblical scholars that the Gospels were written pseudonymously.

                            This is one those statements that requires quantifying. We then get into the circle of "my scholars are better then yours" If one searches hard enought one can find a "scholar" to support pretty much anything they want to believe. It all boils down to what you are trying to prove which again is based on what is your presupposition in the first place. Then in comes down a personal choice on who you trust and who you do not again based on your own bias.

                            Another most profound is this statement "Again, this isn't an attempt to lead people away from faith," When in fact the article is an attempt to destroy the veracity of the very foundation fo what they believe. When a Christian stands up and say that Jesus is the only way they get inundated with comments that they evangelizing. And yet in this same sense you are evangelizing others with your faith. You cannot try and destroy the foundation for someones faith and then say you are not attempting to lead them away, under the guise of helpig them be less extreme and not call it evangelizing.

                            I spent many years trying to destroy the bible and attempting to enlighten those that believe in it. I was not successful is an understatement. I have for the past seven years been defending the bible and what I believe is truth. I have been successful on a limited scale for one reason and one reason only I do so with the knowledge that I cannot bring anyone to Christ, only God can do that. The one concept that most Atheist or those opposed to the bible that is never understood is that God is in control. You can no more pull some one away from a true relationship with Christ as you can change your DNA. On the other side as a Christian I cannot bring anyone to Christwho is not willing to come and that willingness is given to them solely by the power of the Spirit. So warning be careful as you study keep your mind focused on the purpose of your study or less you fail as I did and succumb to the love of Christ.

                            H

                            • 2 votes
                            Reply#9 - Wed Feb 22, 2012 3:21 PM EST
                            KElane

                            First and foremost if you do not believe the bible is true why bother with it?

                            I would like to know this, also. What gives with an atheists obsession to discredit another persons beliefs? If you don't believe, what's the big deal? Shrug your shoulders and forget it.

                            Another most profound is this statement "Again, this isn't an attempt to lead people away from faith,"When in fact the article is an attempt to destroy the veracity of the very foundation fo what they believe. When a Christian stands up and say that Jesus is the only way they get inundated with comments that they evangelizing. And yet in this same sense you are evangelizing others with your faith. You cannot try and destroy the foundation for someones faith and then say you are not attempting to lead them away, under the guise of helpig them be less extreme and not call it evangelizing.

                            I was on another thread where the author wrote about her faith. An atheists accused her of preaching to her--On her own article!

                            I think it's great to share what you believe. In fact, as a Christian we were suppose to proclaim the good news of God's Kingdom. [See Matthew 28:19, 20; Matthew 24:14]

                            What is the matter with articles such as this--please don't take offense--is it's designed to undermine anothers faith. What's even worse is it's done without accurate knowledge.

                            What's sad is the message is buried under attempts to discredit the book. IThe Bible has an excellent message, one of hope and peace. It's main theme is God's Kingdom. A Kingdom that will do away with all the miseries we see today. Revelation 21:4

                            One might consider the strength of this book. How could it have possibly survived after all it's been through? There was a time it was illegal to read the scriptures. People were stoned, burned alive with the Bible attached to a rope and wrapped around the poor reader's neck. The Bible itself was burned with great attempts to destroy any evidences that it existed. Still through the centuries, the Bible still is the number one best seller of ALL time, it's available in over 2500 languages--through all the centuries--millenniums, really, it has without a doubt past the test of time. There's not a person who can deny that. 2 Timothy 3:16.

                            See December 2011 Awake article for a more information: The Book that could not be Destroyed

                            • 5 votes
                            #9.1 - Wed Feb 22, 2012 4:44 PM EST
                            Reply
                            JON FROM CHICAGO

                            I believe the Gospels and letters were productions of the Roman Theater,

                            musicial plays and literary entertainment,

                            the frequent mentions of nudity are consistent with such a interpretation

                            and that when Jesus in John six says "I am the bread" and "you must eat my flesh"

                            at a time when a loaf called the ollisbokollix was sold at the commercial bakeries,

                            translated, dildo bread.

                            it was a reference to oral intercourse

                            and that double meanings and puns of this sort were considered to be the work of the gods

                            and authors who thought of them inspired.

                            thus the plays were burlesque.

                            when the woman who had the issue of blood came out

                            she would lift her skirt and have a sheer underskirt painted to look like blood

                            and then when she was healed she would lift that up

                            and be totally exposed from the waist down.

                            that Matthew has Jesus being born before 4 B.C. and

                            with a different geneology than Luke who has Jesus being born in 5-6 A.D.

                            the way you can tell is that while the angel comes to marry while Herod is alive

                            its not till Qurinius that Jesus is born

                            and it was under at the time of Qurinius in 5-6 A.D.

                            that there was a Jesus as high priest in Jerusalem

                            "so call his name Jesus" was a little prophecy

                            and it means that in Luke that Jesus was born in 5-6 A.D.

                            so the gospel really do tell to different stories

                            and that's what they basicly are stories.

                            i believe there was a Jesus,

                            that Pilate was plotting with Sejanus aginst Tiberius and offered him Herods kingdom

                            and Jesus tuned him down and chose death rather than be a traitor

                            and that the Romans when they found out chose to celebrate him by writing the plays

                            and Jesus was the name they gave him.

                            he was the son of a roman soldier and a jewish woman, a so called "son of the gods".

                            they were in rome at the time living in a totalitarian dictator ship

                            so you couldn't say things directly but you could hint

                            and then others could explain it to you at home.

                            sort of like how they do tennesse williams in iran.

                            he might have been related to a priestly family

                            and hung out with friends because he couldn't be a priest.

                            they put "I lived as a king" over his head

                            and probably got him because he owed some one money. and then got him for treason too.

                            when his family wouldn't pay.

                            because they were in on the scheme with Pilate.

                              Reply#10 - Fri Mar 9, 2012 2:52 PM EST
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